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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:08 am 
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RIght, exactly! That's the superpositions and specific eigenstates. You're talking about the collapse of the wave function there. The weirdest thing about all of that is, the second time travel is invented in a closed world like Looper, EVERYthing becomes a superposition, and the past becomes a possibility (or probability) instead of an absolute.

I think what you guys are getting at with the memory stuff is, well, how would that junk ever fit into our human brains? Consciousness is too absolute for that kind of messing around. Or is it?

But I still have to think that once Young Joe dies, nothing he did after his death ever happened (anything Old Joe did.) Same with Seth. Otherwise, you'd have a paradox lasting about 30 years.

/overthinking


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:39 am 
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Once Young Joe dies, Old Joe never existed, and the waveform of that possible future collapses completely.

So I guess in the end, Old Joe's wife doesn't get killed by the Rainmaker's heavies. Supposing the Rainmaker has heavies in the new future.

You're all just thinking about it too much. Young Joe letting Old Joe kill Sara creates the Rainmaker and reinforces Old Joe's timeline. Young Joe making that impossible opens a new future where maybe Cid is a good guy, like Sara envisions. That we'll never know. It's just likelier.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:08 pm 
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Justin wrote:
You're all just thinking about it too much.



That's how I enjoy things like this. :)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:35 pm 
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Interesting how in Primers version of time-travel that wouldn't exist at all. It would just be two versions of the same person on the same plane.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:33 am 
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I'm of the opinion that when Young Joe kills himself, he doesn't close the loop, but that's just the end of his loop. Yes, the events of the movie are what created the Rain Maker. Sure Cid's mom didn't end up getting shot, but Cid really looked up to Young Joe, and seeing as his role model/possible father figure died, and he himself got shot in the face, it makes sense to me that he'd still work towards ending Loopers, tearing them down from the inside (by becoming a crime lord himself or whatever, so that he can close the loops).

The world wouldn't end just because Young Joe's loop ended, that's just where his story ends.

Also I kind of like this theory because it means that every time you watch the movie, you are watching the loop repeat itself, which I think is a pretty awesome idea..


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:09 am 
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^ To me that would make it a totally nihilistic ending. My interpretation is, Cid watched a Looper die for him. He learned about sacrifice and selflessness in the most extreme way possible. Someone cared enough about breaking the cycle that he was willing to die for it. That's why I believe that Young Joe actually did break the cycle (the loop) of murder, revenge, murder, revenge, etc.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:53 am 
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Absolutely, Jules. The film is definitely invested in showing Joe's decision as heroic, which contradicts the previous (nearly) 2 hours which have shown him as weak, ineffectual, and stupid. He only becomes a hero through his sacrifice, which was made in hope instead of fear. To do that and then encourage the reading that Cid will definitely become The Rainmaker would be cynical, and undermine the *cough* "message" of the film.

(At this point I think it is worth mentioning that I think there is a clear moral message in Looper, and that it is important to the film, not ancillary.)

Obviously there is an air of ambiguity to the ending, but I think the film encourages the audience to believe (or at least hope) that Joe has contributed to Cid's life in a positive way.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:02 am 
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Day Glo wrote:
(At this point I think it is worth mentioning that I think there is a clear moral message in Looper, and that it is important to the film, not ancillary.)

Obviously there is an air of ambiguity to the ending, but I think the film encourages the audience to believe (or at least hope) that Joe has contributed to Cid's life in a positive way.


I think that hope plays directly into the theme. In the end, it's kind of a film about parenting - how your early development and the influences surrounding you determine to a large extent how your life will be. Parenting often comes down to that hope - you can't CONTROL the outcome of a child's life - all you can do is do your best, make sacrifices, and HOPE that they're going to turn out okay.

So I agree, the audience is definitly directed to hope with Joe that his sacrifice will lead to a better future (one where Cid does not become a Holy Terror), and reading it otherwise, while technically valid, feels contrary to this theme.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:48 am 
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^ Exactly, to both. And I think that the pivotal moment here is when Joe sees all the blood raining down and goes "OMG RAINMAKER" and tells Sarah that Cid does not grow up to be a good guy. But then when he meets him in the corn field, there's that super sweet moment where Cid leans his head against his leg. I think everything changes then. To me, anyway.

ETA: And the final two scenes, or Sarah tucking Cid into his bed, and then her finding Joe and touching his hair like he remembered his mom doing, gave me the feeling that his sacrifice afforded Cid the life that Joe could never have. That gave me lots of feels. I like to think that it meant something positive.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:36 am 
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I guess I just lean towards the negative, as I definitely took the cynical view towards the ending. First of all, Young Joe sees the world as a terrible place, and then he kills himself. Sure it was "heroic" to save Sarah from an immediate danger but the dialogue leading up to it, "I saw the woman willing to die for her son, the man willing to kill for his wife..." Anyone could see those things, even here in 2012, but not everyone kills themselves to "end it." I kind of took it as a punch line to a kind of twisted joke... you might think it was a positive ending but once you realize what really happened...

Plus they do a good job of setting up the "current" world as kind of a terrible, really sh*tty place. No wonder people become loopers, better to be a looper, close your loop, and then have 30 years to live it up than to live in total poverty like a lot of people depicted in the film appeared to be.

But yeah, I do agree about the scenes following the suicide, with Cid and his mom. Those were nice and hopeful that maybe his life could turn out differently to Joe's.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:46 am 
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I know some movies do end cynically like that, and certainly that fits in with real life where bad things do tend to keep happening. But, Young Joe specifically states what his choice is. He outright says that he sees the cycle happening and he makes the choice to put a stop to it the only way he can. To me, he didn't kill himself out of despair because it's a "terrible world." He had a reason. It wasn't a suicide, it was a sacrifice.

And I think the scenes with Sarah and Cid, and Sarah and Joe at the end reenforce that. It is a crappy world, but one person can make a big change for the better. That can also happen in real life. :)

Of course, there's no wrong way to interpret the movie.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:35 am 
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Image

A drawing by Rian. Hope this helps a bit.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:41 am 
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Awesome! I love that this timeline of important scenes includes Joe not running over the vagrant kid.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:15 pm 
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Why is the near running kid over scene listed?
Is it important?

1. Random person killed by JGL Joe
27. Near accident
57. finger cut off young and old ( ) simultaneously.
67. BWJoe (2) escapes.
76. BWJoe (1) is shot and killed. JGLJoe will now experience a path leading to the Joe he just killed, only now he will travel one minute earlier, with no hood and turn and survive (as seen in scene 67).

129. diner scene (note coffee cup listed)

I like BW JOe and JGL Joe because young Joe and Old Joe seems confusing at times.
Obviously BW = Bruce Willis.

I'm way too tired to think. Can someone finish this?
It was guessed at by someone else. But I wanted a fresh assessment.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:19 pm 
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futuro.asesinos wrote:
Why is the near running kid over scene listed?
Is it important?

It's a key moment thematically. For one, it foreshadows Joe not wanting to kill Cid later on - even at his most drug-addled, he's careful about kids. More importantly, it's a link to Joe's own past. This boy is the background he came from (although, crucially, the boy does have a mother (or a maternal figure), though they fail to protect him from potentially being run over). The reverse of Joe's face afterwards is the first hint that Joe is troubled by the crumbling society around him.


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