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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:01 am 
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If the time-machine is not adjustable, then presumably there is a different device for each Looper.

If Old Joe was in China, was his time machine in China? Is it a Chinese time machine that sends him back to young Joe? I don't think its a requirement of the film, and in fact I assume Old Joe was probably transported to the time-machine...but if it was in China, it paints a slightly different picture of Abe's advice that young Joe go to China.

That said, I accept that Abe proffered the advice earnestly, and the line was delivered for comedic effect rather than to stimulate thoughts about the vagaries of time-travel assassinations - but you might see my point that, if Young Joe's victims come from a time machine in China, then it would be that much more convenient, from the syndicate's perspective, if he were in China to begin with.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:21 am 
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^I had that thought, too. Abe was from the future, so possibly he knew where/how they were going to get Old Joe and close his loop. In other words, how it had already happened. Was he nudging Young Joe to do that, because it was the future that he knew?

Or maybe he wasn't all that involved in the loop-closing part, and was just sincerely like, "No, go to China, it'll be better for you."


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:19 pm 
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Abe has been in charge of the loopers (in the film's "present") for like 20 years, right? (I'm making the assumption that Joe the character is the same or a similar age to Joe the actor.) It seems unlikely to me that he would have personal knowledge of the specifics of when each (or any) loop is closed.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:44 pm 
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^ True. Especially since the Rainmaker kind of muscled in and started taking over. It'd be out of everyone else's control at that point.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:28 am 
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westcoast ape wrote:
I don't really subscribe to the theory that Cid is "fallen".


I understand your resistance to such a theory, and recognize that my view is controvierial. I respect your right to not agree with me about Cid's status in the movie. And perhaps, rather than saying that Cid is fallen, a better way to express my position is to say that he is already a tragic characher that is on a path that must be intentionally changed to avoid a future tragedy involving his mother.

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He is a five-year old who throws gets scared, or hurt, or has a tantrum, and bad things happen that he can't yet fully control.


He is not a normal five-year old. He is a five-year old that is armed with a lethal weapon who can only be supervised, not disarmed. He has already tragicly used this weapon lethally. He is alienated from the only supervision that can teach him how to responsibly handle such a weapon by the time young Joe enters his life (Cid pointedly turns away from his mother when she puts him to bed and refuses to use any affectionate term that recognizes her parental/supervisory role).

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He is not fully developed, like YJoe/OJoe.


I agree with that. And as such, he is both more dangerous to himself and others than YJoe/OJoe by being in possession of such a lethal weapon but more easily redeemed from the effects of the death that weapon has caused. However, in the absence of a positive redemptive change in Cid's character and behavior, no one should consider themselves safe around this kid, whether YJoe/OJoe enters his life or not.

My theory that Cid ultimately becomes involved in his real mother's death in the original timeline is based on the fact that tragedy has already befallen Cid's "mother" and that his real mother is in danger of becoming Cid's victim or collateral damage in both ordinary (the tantrum) and extraordinary (the henchman's death) situations. The path of tragedy is in motion for Cid, just as it would be for any five-year old carrying around a loaded gun and rejecting adult supervision in real life. Passivily leaving that situation unchanged is not an option, no matter what position one holds concerning childhood innocence.

Stoping the tragedy that leads to the Rainmaker requires effective adult intervention and an intentional submissive change in Cid's character. The movie nearly out-right says this, and I agree. Without that it is wishful thinking to entertain the notion that his weapon and his life will not eventually lead to more tragedy. Apparently in the original timeline, that change never happens.

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That said, I do applaud Rian for adding complexity and insight to the portrayal of a child. Cid is no angel, and is making plots and plans of his own that he keeps to himself. I can see why a person would consider Cid a "fallen" character, because a striking feature of this film is that Cid actually is a serious character, an active participant, not just a topic that is meant to illustrate some aspect of childhood.


Agreed.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:07 am 
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westcoast ape wrote:
If the time-machine is not adjustable, then presumably there is a different device for each Looper.

If Old Joe was in China, was his time machine in China? Is it a Chinese time machine that sends him back to young Joe? I don't think its a requirement of the film, and in fact I assume Old Joe was probably transported to the time-machine...but if it was in China, it paints a slightly different picture of Abe's advice that young Joe go to China.

That said, I accept that Abe proffered the advice earnestly, and the line was delivered for comedic effect rather than to stimulate thoughts about the vagaries of time-travel assassinations - but you might see my point that, if Young Joe's victims come from a time machine in China, then it would be that much more convenient, from the syndicate's perspective, if he were in China to begin with.


I think Old Joe's machine was indeed in China, and that particular one is affixed to the field in Kansas. Space and time are the same thing--if you can rip a hole in reality to 30 years ago, why not make that hole someplace else?

Abe has been running the Loopers for 10 years, perhaps longer. So the movie's set in 2041 (?), Old Joe is from 2071. Abe, who went through the same 30-year hole 10, or 15, or 20 years earlier, was sent back probably in 2051-2061.

Let's translate this to our reality: Hi, I'm from 30 years in the future and have been here 20 years. I still have knowledge of the next 10 years that no one else possibly could, but it's 30-year-old news to me and events happening may see more like deja vu "oh, I remember when that happened" occurrences than simply sitting there being oracular.

So I might say to you, today, "Don't necessarily bet the farm that the Miami Heat will win this year's NBA championship," not because I know Oklahoma City beat them in five games, but because I happen to remember that LeBron only won a single championship before blowing out his knee in October 2015. So my imperfect, but otherwise unattainable, knowledge can help me point me, and people I speak to, in directions that benefit them, but I'm not Biff from Back to the Future II.

But really, as those of us reading this right now know, the "I'm from the future, kid, go to China," was Rian lampshading the change in script stemming from the Chinese money that came in to help the film to get made. The worry about the rest of it--along with any other chitter-chatter about the realities or lack of pertaining to time travel, were already shitcanned by Old Joe in the diner.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:42 pm 
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circuitsnake wrote:
sarahalyse wrote:
circuitsnake wrote:
There was so not a fence in that shot. Either way...that's just reduced to bickering...


Goddammit, this is why I should have just bought the regular DVD. But unless my memory is very much mistaken, he was dumped in the same spot that we see Old Seth climbing the fence. He looks through the fence at the trains. No?


I don't remember!


THERE IS A FENCE!


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:20 pm 
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rcjohnso wrote:
circuitsnake wrote:
sarahalyse wrote:
Goddammit, this is why I should have just bought the regular DVD. But unless my memory is very much mistaken, he was dumped in the same spot that we see Old Seth climbing the fence. He looks through the fence at the trains. No?


I don't remember!


THERE IS A FENCE!


Thank god you're around to answer the really tricky questions.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:00 pm 
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Day Glo wrote:
Not a plot hole, but a question, Rian: If a looper doesn't survive long enough for to close their own loop (say they get hit by a truck at the age of 48), does their contract still have an endpoint? Presumably someone in the 2074 half of the operation know if a looper doesn't live long enough to be be caught and sent back, and in any case they can't keep looping once time travel is an active part of their universe. What happens? Or would happen?


Day Glo wrote:
sarahalyse wrote:
Ooh, I like the question about Loopers who don't survive their 30 years. Never having closed their loop, they'd know something was going to happen to them, too...what effect might that have on the outcome?

Is Rian planning to compile a book of Looper fanfic? Second time this week he's answered a question this way.


I was happy to see this. I've never made a fan film on anything, but Looper has motivated me to do one. The "what happens if they don't make it to 2074" question was the first subject I wanted to tackle. I'm planning a couple of short story type segments, this one being the first. Another one is how the past and the future communicate with each other, which also explains why they don't hire anyone too far back in time even though it would mean they wouldn't have to find the future version(i.e zapping a target back to 1974). The last one will detail the recruitment process, and how a first job goes down. As for the first question, I think it would be like in Star Wars when Anakin has a dream of Padme dying and then does what he thinks will stop it... which turns out to be what kills her. If a Looper is still paid with the "Golden Payday" on his last job (they will in my version), and realizes it's not him/her, that knowledge and following actions to prevent that outcome would be what cause his/her demise.

Fan films/fiction is fine, but I hope some pro sci-fi writers are allowed to work on an expanded Looper Universe like they did with Star Wars. The possibilities are endless.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:32 am 
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I wouldn't hold my breath. Rian doesn't strike me as the "extended universe" sort.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:05 pm 
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sarahalyse wrote:
I wouldn't hold my breath. Rian doesn't strike me as the "extended universe" sort.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U1-OmAICpU

I'm not, but I love the fact that it's living out there and inspiring people to make their own stuff out of it. That's something I never really expected.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:53 pm 
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Rian, any chance of you posting a bit about Primer?

Is there a plot hole in that Aaron was in the attic for more than a day?

Did Shane give you any insight?

Image

Did you like Upstream Color?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:01 pm 
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That's a spoiler for Primer, dude! (Also, it's totally not a plot hole because the film uses a "divergent timelines" model of time travel narrative.)


Last edited by Day Glo on Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:55 pm 
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I rewatched Primer recently. Still good.

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Chonkyfire, spliced with rock n'roll indubitably, piper pied." - Andre 3000


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:58 pm 
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I'm not smart enough to try to untangle the tt stuff in Primer, but I love it.

Upstream Color is brilliant. And don't believe the early reactions that make it sound like an abstract cloud of ideas - it is a rock solid and perfectly sensical story, told in a very innovative and challenging way.


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