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 Post subject: Comments on TLJ
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:53 pm 
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Let me begin by saying that TLJ was a beautiful movie. The Kylo/Rey battle in slow mo where light counters dark as they come together, the use of sound (or lack of sound) in the Holdo scene, Luke’s death... beautiful. That said, I am struggling with some of the plot and would appreciate your input. I don’t want you to project on the future, just explain the plot or decisions you made for this one movie:
1. Kylo killing Snoke... I absolutely agree. It furthers Kylo and makes sense in his story. But when will we be informed about Snoke? It feels lazy to kill off a character you know the fans want to know about without telling us more. Kylo also does not appear more powerful than Rey, all he has is an an army. Which don’t mean much if Rey, Rose and Finn can sneak into a flagship already.
2. Luke’s story - why did he have to almost murder Kylo? Luke was the embodiment of hope - having him finally FAIL his family would be acceptable as his breaking point, but almost a murderer in cold blood of his family? He let the emperor torture him trying to save his father. Those actions are polar opposites - I cannot accept that portrayal of Luke considering his past. I think him being indifferent with Kylo and Kylo getting jealous, or tossing his failures in his face similar to Snoke as the movie began being the spark that drove Kylo to destroy the Jedi Academy would have been more acceptable... we would see a connection between Luke and Snokes teaching styles and Kylie reactions each time - to try and murder his teacher.
3. Rey is annoyingly too powerful. She fought better than Kylo. She’s always near perfect in both films. Luke and Anakin suffered in their growth and development, Rey is just a natural. It’s a flat character.
4. Leia - could have died in space. She would have been easy to write out of the rest of the movie. I believe the respect for her as a person was placed over the story and continuity of the Star Wars universe. It’s now difficult for JJ to explain her characters absence in Ep IX. That to me is selfish.
5. Knights of Ren - where are they? We’re the storylines left by JJ respected at all in TLJ? JJ provided intrigue into many characters in Episode VII... the approach to Ep VIII felt entirely as wanting to tell a different story regardless of plot lines and characters laid out prior - especially for those characters or plot lines fans were excited to see move forward.
6. Time. Hardly any time passed, so there was no opportunity for training - Rey has less than 18 hours of training with Luke. Why couldn’t you let the Resistance escape the First Order and then get caught on Crait trying to regroup after a month or so? Give Rey time with Luke - at the very least time to get annoyed with him. Not a single DAY. It just continues her story as being too powerful, too flat of a hero.
I do want to say again visually, the movie was stunning. I liked the ending, showing more force users across the galaxy come again to maybe have a new generation of Jedi/force users. I am able to respect the film as a FILM, as a work of art. But as a piece of the Star Wars story it feels self serving and dismissive of fans. I don’t think it opens the future much, because I don’t think anyone cares for our new heroes as we did in the original story, or even the prequels. It opens up for the return of force users... that’s about the only piece of these movies I care about moving forward now. Should our heroes all die, I could care less. But we know they won’t, Disney wouldn’t allow for a woman hero to die.

Thank you -
A Star Wars fan


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on TLJ
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:10 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:48 pm
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My responses in bold.

1. Kylo killing Snoke... I absolutely agree. It furthers Kylo and makes sense in his story. But when will we be informed about Snoke? It feels lazy to kill off a character you know the fans want to know about without telling us more. Kylo also does not appear more powerful than Rey, all he has is an an army. Which don’t mean much if Rey, Rose and Finn can sneak into a flagship already.
In my opinion, killing Snoke is interesting because it builds the dynamic between Kylo and Hux, and between Kylo and Rey. I heard that there were a lot of "Snoke theories" out there, and maybe a lot of people were interested in finding out more about him like you said. Maybe delving into Snoke just wasn't the story that Rian happened to come up with, and had time to address - after all, there were quite a lot of story lines left open or unexplained in Force Awakens, and it just might not have been possible to address all of them in a single movie.
2. Luke’s story - why did he have to almost murder Kylo? Why not? Luke was the embodiment of hope - having him finally FAIL his family would be acceptable as his breaking point, but almost a murderer in cold blood of his family? Yeah, decent point. He let the emperor torture him trying to save his father. Those actions are polar opposites - I cannot accept that portrayal of Luke considering his past. I think you and Mark Hamill are on the same page there, from what I've heard. I think him being indifferent with Kylo and Kylo getting jealous, or tossing his failures in his face similar to Snoke as the movie began being the spark that drove Kylo to destroy the Jedi Academy would have been more acceptable... we would see a connection between Luke and Snokes teaching styles and Kylie reactions each time - to try and murder his teacher.
3. Rey is annoyingly too powerful. She fought better than Kylo. She’s always near perfect in both films. Luke and Anakin suffered in their growth and development, Rey is just a natural. It’s a flat character. Interesting point. Yes, it would be interesting to see where her weakness is. I think the movie kind of alluded to it being her insecurity about her parents, and how she went down into the dark side hole, but you're right that that weakness never really resulted in any negative events for her (besides maybe shooting a hole in the stone masonry hut).
4. Leia - could have died in space. She would have been easy to write out of the rest of the movie. I believe the respect for her as a person was placed over the story and continuity of the Star Wars universe. Possibly so... It’s now difficult for JJ to explain her characters absence in Ep IX. That to me is selfish. Hmmm
5. Knights of Ren - where are they? I guess that's another unresolved point from Force Awakens - well, there sure were a lot of them. We’re the storylines left by JJ respected at all in TLJ? Seems like a lot of them were, but maybe not all of them. JJ provided intrigue into many characters in Episode VII... the approach to Ep VIII felt entirely as wanting to tell a different story regardless of plot lines and characters laid out prior - especially for those characters or plot lines fans were excited to see move forward.
6. Time. Hardly any time passed, so there was no opportunity for training - Rey has less than 18 hours of training with Luke. I guess Luke's stay on Dagobah was longer. Why couldn’t you let the Resistance escape the First Order and then get caught on Crait trying to regroup after a month or so? Give Rey time with Luke - at the very least time to get annoyed with him. Not a single DAY. It just continues her story as being too powerful, too flat of a hero. Not a bad idea.
I do want to say again visually, the movie was stunning. I liked the ending, showing more force users across the galaxy come again to maybe have a new generation of Jedi/force users. I am able to respect the film as a FILM, as a work of art. But as a piece of the Star Wars story it feels self serving and dismissive of fans. I think some fans probably would feel that way. I can't see the argument for why it would be dismissive of fans, and you can't make everybody happy all the timeI don’t think it opens the future much, because I don’t think anyone cares for our new heroes as we did in the original story, or even the prequels. It opens up for the return of force users... that’s about the only piece of these movies I care about moving forward now. Should our heroes all die, I could care less. But we know they won’t, Disney wouldn’t allow for a woman hero to die. sounds like a dare


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on TLJ
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:15 pm 
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Just in response to point 2: Luke didn't act on that thought. It's precisely because to do so would be a betrayal of who Luke is that he doesn't act on it, and he feels shame. And that shame is what drives his behaviour throughout the film.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on TLJ
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:06 pm 
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Just to play the other side of the argument.... One might argue that Luke DID act on his fear of Kylo merely by standing over him with a light saber wielded - enough to evoke a strong reaction in just about anybody. That in and of itself was enough to set off Kylo. It's kind of like how diplomatic errors between countries can lead to military conflict, or like how even slight antagonization or even misunderstandings between police and citizens in tense situations can lead to a dead person.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on TLJ
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:50 am 
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Re: Luke: Yes, it was jarring. But I also 100% believe that the best human on the planet is still human, and still has thoughts like this. Things are obviously always more dramatic in the SW universe, so not everyone is going to stand over someone while they sleep and consider murdering them. But you take real life and magnify it times a thousand, and you might get a reaction like that one. Remember Luke says that Kylo had already turned by that point, so it's safe to assume that Luke already thought that the rest of the Jedi were in danger, so he considered it. We hate to face things like this in people we admire and in ourselves, but I think quite a few people sometimes think, "But wouldn't life just be better / easier if so and so would just up and die?" It's a horrible thought and we feel ashamed of it, but sometimes it's there.

Leia in space: I think everyone is forgetting that the movie was completed when Carrie walked on. To go back and re-film everything without her would have been labor intensive AND I think would have deprived us of one of her best and most magnificent performances. They will find a way to write her out of the next one. That's what writers do. :(

Re: Rey being too powerful. I'm personally a little tired of this argument wrt female characters as a whole, so I'm not going to say anything other than that. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on TLJ
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:06 pm 
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JulesKD wrote:
Re: Rey being too powerful. I'm personally a little tired of this argument wrt female characters as a whole, so I'm not going to say anything other than that. :)

Here's the thing for me: Yeah. Rey is too powerful. But just like with Luke being in hiding, it's a decision that JJ made for TFA and now the series has to roll with it. Making Rey's extraordinary power be because of her bloodline would be lazy and regressive and bad. Making her extraordinary power a feature of the Force balancing itself? That expands the world. That makes Star Wars feel bigger.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on TLJ
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:10 pm 
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I don’t even really agree that she is too powerful to be honest.

She was only able to beat Kylo in the force awakens when he was so badly hurt he could barely lift his lightsaber (seriously, watch that scene again, he can barely lift it), in TLJ in the stick-fight with luke she flat out loses to him in a couple of seconds, she has to draw a lightsaber to even things out, Snoke makes a mockery of her powers in his throne room, smacking her on the head with the lightsaber, and in the fight with the red guards Rey mostly fights one while kylo fights three at a time. Literally every other force user alive is stronger than her.

I wouldn’t even be bothered in any way if she were more powerful (snoke and maz exist, so there’s superpowerful force users we’ve never heard of everywhere anyway, why can’t she be one?) but she clearly isn’t, so I’d say it’s all good.

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 Post subject: Re: Comments on TLJ
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:00 am 
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JulesKD wrote:
Leia in space: I think everyone is forgetting that the movie was completed when Carrie walked on. To go back and re-film everything without her would have been labor intensive AND I think would have deprived us of one of her best and most magnificent performances. They will find a way to write her out of the next one. That's what writers do. :(

Re: Rey being too powerful. I'm personally a little tired of this argument wrt female characters as a whole, so I'm not going to say anything other than that. :)


RE: Leia in space: It wouldn't have had to been too many scenes. Just leave her out there. Doing so would grand Vice Admiral Holdo more of a significant role in the future. Doing so could not only give Leia a death with the meaning that she deserves, but could (potentially) have lead to the survival of Luke and the stupidity of Kylo and Rey returning to their roles as the overpowered possessor of the dues-ex machina within the current trilogy, and Kylo as the foil for her.

RE: Rey being too powerful: I have no problems with having strong female characters in media. However, the problem begins when they can fight off six men that are around twice their size(e.g. Atomic Blonde) or do everything that the plot demands of them. Both of those things make them not only unbelievable characters, but also flat characters, that no amount of suspending of the viewer's disbelief could make it believable.


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 Post subject: Re: Comments on TLJ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:52 am 
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Marioai wrote:
Luke’s story - why did he have to almost murder Kylo? Luke was the embodiment of hope - having him finally FAIL his family would be acceptable as his breaking point, but almost a murderer in cold blood of his family? He let the emperor torture him trying to save his father. Those actions are polar opposites - I cannot accept that portrayal of Luke considering his past.

I did initially think that Luke igniting his lightsaber to murder his nephew in his sleep was out of character for Luke. However, we may then consider the emotional poisons that can drive someone to extremes that border on madness.

I considered the afflictive emotions from each of the three intelligence centers of a human being: the Gut, the Heart, and the Head. Rage originates from the Gut when our personal boundaries are violated. Vanity and shame originate from the Heart. Fear and anxiety originate from the Head.

Luke stated to Rey that, in the past, he had no fear of the power that his students displayed, including the extraordinary level of power that Ben Solo had. Murdering someone in his sleep is ostensibly a cowardly act, but fear was not a factor. In his conversation with Rey, Luke speaks of hubris and shame – both of which are afflictions of the Heart. Luke had an emotional investment in Ben and took things personally when Ben betrayed him.

I can imagine a Jedi defending prostitutes in a bordello, only to later Force-choke his own lover and ignite a lightsaber, when he finds her in bed with another man. That Jedi had no emotional investment in the prostitutes; he did have an emotional investment in his lover.

Similarly, Luke had an emotional investment in his nephew. He took things personally when he was betrayed. I can imagine Luke thinking: “I made you the heir to everything I have. And I find you in bed with Snoke?!”


Marioai wrote:
Time. Hardly any time passed, so there was no opportunity for training - Rey has less than 18 hours of training with Luke. Why couldn’t you let the Resistance escape the First Order and then get caught on Crait trying to regroup after a month or so? Give Rey time with Luke - at the very least time to get annoyed with him. Not a single DAY. It just continues her story as being too powerful, too flat of a hero.

It would have been nice to give Rey the equivalent of several years of training. There could have been a part of the sacred island where the Force causes time to pass at a very different rate. But the movie was long enough as is, with quite a few scenes deleted. Rey’s training would need to be shown as flashbacks in another movie.


Last edited by Crooner on Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Comments on TLJ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:47 pm 
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Crooner wrote:
I did initially think that Luke igniting his lightsaber to murder his nephew in his sleep was out of character for Luke. However, we may then consider the emotional poisons that can drive someone to extremes that border on madness.


A film-savvy friend (or maybe someone here--not that you're not my friends, but this one guy I know I think said it first) pointed out that it was a very direct Rashomon reference. Rian likes to misdirect a lot of things in his films--my chief advice to friends before it came out was "He's going to fake you out by faking you out, and that's the fake-out," and even having said that going in he still faked me right the F out.


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