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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:12 pm 
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Justin wrote:

The problem isn't the hair color, it's the way you're interpreting it. (See, I can do, etc.)

Next up: thought experiment. Imagine it's Ackbar instead of Holdo. Would you have a problem with him doing every single thing exactly the same way? You don't need to tell us, just think on it.


Yes, I would. But, not to the same extent because Ackbar had already been well and truly established as a grounded character, whereas Hondo hadn't been. She was shown to be arrogant and condescending, then posited to be the opposite by Leia after the fact.

Kzap wrote:
shane1594 wrote:
in real life, there happens to be a relation between a certain type of woman (see, I can do it too) having very short hair, and dyeing it unrealistic colours.

Is there though? I'd like to see you cite your sources on this (beyond a misogynist meme).
Off the top of my head I can think of three women I've known who've have had short, brightly dyed hair and not one of them fits that description but seeing as you're the one making that assertion the burden of proof is on you to prove the relation.


Okay, I'll deal with this again. I am just pointing out that there is a propensity for women that act a certain way, to possess certain traits. By no means does the link have to exist, it just seems to in coincide with Admiral Holdo. If you want sources though, you can just google feminist hair and go to images. In Australia, off the top of my head, we have Jessica Rowe, though she doesn't dye her hair (I think).


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:52 pm 
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I've seen this Holdo complaint all over the internet. Let me just say that she's just a ranking officer in a military organization. Like. Literally anyone could have played Holdo. Could have been a man or woman. Point being that if you're General Leah and you're running a small resistance fleet you probably have a series of woman advising you because the men is Star Wars are EMOTIONAL WRECKS. So you get Holdo, an Officer playing that role.

I've seen some arguments saying that it should have been Leah that killed herself. And yeah I guess emotionally that would have worked, but at the time Carrie Fisher was gonna have a whole Episode 9 arch, so I see why. It's actually really sad that the only Skywalker left alive is Kylo Ren. But that's the point of The Last Jedi, it's that the force flows through all of us. Now if you excuse me I gotta go get a broom.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:03 pm 
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Kzap wrote:
I for one am glad he's dead and he went without much ceremony.


Best post of the thread :D


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:31 pm 
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shane1594 wrote:
No, not totally fair. Ones gender does not excuse ones actions, ever, and Jules, I am sorry about your experience in gaming, but I have trained in multiple martial arts (not MMA), so trust me when I say, that being female in certain arts can be beneficial(i.e. Judo, Jujitsu, or some other martial art that has a focus on throws), but, even then, that is only to a point. If you're talking about something like boxing, then it is likely them being concerned for your well-being. The unfortunate thing in that situation, is the way that you are interpreting it.


yeah, the guy who told me to get my vagina off the mat and the guy who punched me in the tit before we even started sparring were "concerned for my wellbeing" and I was just taking it the wrong way.

Seriously, you need to stop talking. You are exactly what I've been saying you are. Edited to add that you keep using "feminist" in a disparaging way, so really: take all the seats.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:04 pm 
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circuitsnake wrote:
I've seen this Holdo complaint all over the internet. Let me just say that she's just a ranking officer in a military organization. Like. Literally anyone could have played Holdo. Could have been a man or woman. Point being that if you're General Leah and you're running a small resistance fleet you probably have a series of woman advising you because the men is Star Wars are EMOTIONAL WRECKS. So you get Holdo, an Officer playing that role.


You're absolutely right, and that is the very point that I was raising. I know what's going to come from this, but, by and large, women are far more incapable of shelving their emotions than men. Which was evidenced by Leia's making an emotional decision in demoting Poe after she felt all of those pilots die. Then, trying to tell us that everything Holdo did was right, because reasons.


JulesKD wrote:
shane1594 wrote:
No, not totally fair. Ones gender does not excuse ones actions, ever, and Jules, I am sorry about your experience in gaming, but I have trained in multiple martial arts (not MMA), so trust me when I say, that being female in certain arts can be beneficial(i.e. Judo, Jujitsu, or some other martial art that has a focus on throws), but, even then, that is only to a point. If you're talking about something like boxing, then it is likely them being concerned for your well-being. The unfortunate thing in that situation, is the way that you are interpreting it.


yeah, the guy who told me to get my vagina off the mat and the guy who punched me in the tit before we even started sparring were "concerned for my wellbeing" and I was just taking it the wrong way.

Seriously, you need to stop talking. You are exactly what I've been saying you are. Edited to add that you keep using "feminist" in a disparaging way, so really: take all the seats.

Don't lie here and misquote me, you know that I said 'likely', and I did say that in 'some' martial arts, it is beneficial, not all. When fighting against men in a 'strong' martial art, like you seem to be talking about, women are at a distinct disadvantage going in. While their language is unacceptable, the sentiment behind it is based in physiology and, given what you have said here, I find it difficult to believe that you weren't egging them on at least a little. As for where the guy punched you, be serious here, all martial artists (other than boxing) are taught to aim at the chest, and would you really rather have been punched in the head?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:51 pm 
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shane1594 wrote:
circuitsnake wrote:
I've seen this Holdo complaint all over the internet. Let me just say that she's just a ranking officer in a military organization. Like. Literally anyone could have played Holdo. Could have been a man or woman. Point being that if you're General Leah and you're running a small resistance fleet you probably have a series of woman advising you because the men is Star Wars are EMOTIONAL WRECKS. So you get Holdo, an Officer playing that role.


You're absolutely right, and that is the very point that I was raising. I know what's going to come from this, but, by and large, women are far more incapable of shelving their emotions than men. Which was evidenced by Leia's making an emotional decision in demoting Poe after she felt all of those pilots die. Then, trying to tell us that everything Holdo did was right, because reasons.


JulesKD wrote:
shane1594 wrote:
No, not totally fair. Ones gender does not excuse ones actions, ever, and Jules, I am sorry about your experience in gaming, but I have trained in multiple martial arts (not MMA), so trust me when I say, that being female in certain arts can be beneficial(i.e. Judo, Jujitsu, or some other martial art that has a focus on throws), but, even then, that is only to a point. If you're talking about something like boxing, then it is likely them being concerned for your well-being. The unfortunate thing in that situation, is the way that you are interpreting it.


yeah, the guy who told me to get my vagina off the mat and the guy who punched me in the tit before we even started sparring were "concerned for my wellbeing" and I was just taking it the wrong way.

Seriously, you need to stop talking. You are exactly what I've been saying you are. Edited to add that you keep using "feminist" in a disparaging way, so really: take all the seats.

Don't lie here and misquote me, you know that I said 'likely', and I did say that in 'some' martial arts, it is beneficial, not all. When fighting against men in a 'strong' martial art, like you seem to be talking about, women are at a distinct disadvantage going in. While their language is unacceptable, the sentiment behind it is based in physiology and, given what you have said here, I find it difficult to believe that you weren't egging them on at least a little. As for where the guy punched you, be serious here, all martial artists (other than boxers) are taught to aim at the chest and the first thing that they are taught, is how to defend themselves against strikes made by other practitioners of their art. Besides, in the end, would you really rather have been punched in the head?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:27 am 
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Regulars: NOW do you believe me that this guy is an alt-right troll? Do you see what I had to do to show all of you? This is what I mean. I can see it right away, and yet here are some people like "Well I see what he's saying in some ways" and giving him the time of day.

Can you see how exhausting this is for women? We know right away what we're dealing with. It sucks seeing men we like going "Well let's just hear the other side." This guy literally just told me that I "egged someone on" into assaulting me.

Meanwhile, here is a version of the movie that Shane will like:

https://www.pedestrian.tv/entertainment/last-jedi-mra-fan-edit-women/


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:41 am 
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Can we ban this guy already?

I don’t think he’s alt right or a troll, but I do think he hates women and that’s enough for me.

Edit: dismissing him as a troll implies that he doesn’t actually feel this way, which he clearly does. I also think it’s worth trying to get people to see how they’re wrong when it’s something as ignorant as what he’s been saying. We tried and we failed. BYE!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:00 am 
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I'd already pretty much dismissed him when I first read his title for this thread. Honest? Complete? Seriously? What kind of personality would use adjectives like these to describe his (or her) posts, especially on this forum? Oh, and rather than ban him, just ignore him. He's long since just been repeating himself, anyway.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:28 am 
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I disagree (partially) about the trolling, I think Shane is just a dude that's been surrounded by one kind of thinking for a long time and is shocked, shocked! that there is disagreement to his obviously-correct positions.

I'll happily admit to having opinions as a younger, more sheltered person that now-me is stunned and grossed out by. Through a combination of very patient people, a (literal) move out of my comfort zone, and just kind of having general empathy, I'm fairly sure that I'm an overall better person.

Case in point: Here in America, we get the "American Exceptionalism" idea tossed around pretty regularly. I casually mentioned this in an online forum (much like this) and a good friend (from Denmark) very kindly said "uh what? You folk over there think that by virtue of being born on a given land mass you're just, like, better at stuff?" Which is both an oversimplification and a pretty savage undercutting of it. But the scales did drop from my eyes on that front, and other people at other times did similar things that changed my view on things.

This is a long way around to saying that I'm still in favor of leaving Shane to defend his very very unpopular ideas, despite it being kind of a garbage hose.

Now:

shane1594 wrote:
I know what's going to come from this, but, by and large, women are far more incapable of shelving their emotions than men. Which was evidenced by Leia's making an emotional decision in demoting Poe after she felt all of those pilots die. Then, trying to tell us that everything Holdo did was right, because reasons.


Or is it that men are encouraged by society to cover theirs up? Was Poe's decision to sacrifice the bombers to take out the dreadnought an emotional one? Leia's decision, in my viewpoint, was a tactical and military one--a mere captain overruled a general in order to essentially kamikaze dozens of their people. And Holdo, outranking the recently-demoted Poe, had every right not to tell a guy who, while a main character, the audience knows, is in the movie nothing more than a recently-demoted hotshot pilot.

I mean Poe committed a mutiny and literally no one is faulting him for it, just that "that woman" put him in that position. I am maybe one of the least pro-military people ever, but even I understand the chain of command and its relation to, like, the rule of law and justice generally. Once we start making vigilante decisions it sets us on the road to hell.

And really, they show that the Resistance is just and fair in that they a) just strap him to a gurney for the evacuation, and b) Leia more or less passes the reins to him at the end anyway.

What I'm getting at really is for Shane to back up any of the dyed-hair so-emotional assertions with something beyond stock misogyny. At least have an original idea on it, not something your dad or older brother told you.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:51 am 
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maxfrost wrote:
I'd already pretty much dismissed him when I first read his title for this thread. Honest? Complete? Seriously? What kind of personality would use adjectives like these to describe his (or her) posts, especially on this forum? Oh, and rather than ban him, just ignore him. He's long since just been repeating himself, anyway.


An honest one that has both compliments and criticisms about something. Also, the reason I keep acting like a broken record, is because people keep on bringing the same thing up, in the same way, yet, forsome reason, expecting a different answer.


Last edited by shane1594 on Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:15 am 
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Justin wrote:
Or is it that men are encouraged by society to cover theirs up? Was Poe's decision to sacrifice the bombers to take out the dreadnought an emotional one? Leia's decision, in my viewpoint, was a tactical and military one--a mere captain overruled a general in order to essentially kamikaze dozens of their people. And Holdo, outranking the recently-demoted Poe, had every right not to tell a guy who, while a main character, the audience knows, is in the movie nothing more than a recently-demoted hotshot pilot.

I mean Poe committed a mutiny and literally no one is faulting him for it, just that "that woman" put him in that position. I am maybe one of the least pro-military people ever, but even I understand the chain of command and its relation to, like, the rule of law and justice generally. Once we start making vigilante decisions it sets us on the road to hell.

And really, they show that the Resistance is just and fair in that they a) just strap him to a gurney for the evacuation, and b) Leia more or less passes the reins to him at the end anyway.

What I'm getting at really is for Shane to back up any of the dyed-hair so-emotional assertions with something beyond stock misogyny. At least have an original idea on it, not something your dad or older brother told you.


1. Societal expectations: A fair point.
2. Poe vs Leia: No. Poe's decision wasn't emotional, he clearly stated that Dreadnoughts are fleet killers, given what happened, it's pretty clear that he was right. That a second one showed up soon after, mere plot convenience. Firstly, Poe was a Battlefield Commander at the time, hence more knowledgeable about the situation at hand. Leia's facial expressions and the screen with all the losses displayed, showed that she was clearly affected deeply, so yes, it was.
3. I'll agree, but that sce ne epitomized everything wrong with how The Last Jedi completely ignored everything about the male characters from the last movie (except Kylo Ren).
4. Chain of command: I am no military man myself, but documentaries that I've seen, all mention something along the lines of 'being a good soldier doesn't mean blindly following orders'.
5. Dyed-hair, so emotional: That's not what I was saying. Also, it's not a direct link, it is just two traits that happen to coincide with one another.
6. Do not try to insinuate that I am incapable of critical thought when it is abundantly clear that I am. And, FYI, I am the older brother.
7. I have personally had multiple experiences with the type of person that I have described.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:22 am 
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Rocco wrote:
Can we ban this guy already?

I don’t think he’s alt right or a troll, but I do think he hates women and that’s enough for me.

Edit: dismissing him as a troll implies that he doesn’t actually feel this way, which he clearly does. I also think it’s worth trying to get people to see how they’re wrong when it’s something as ignorant as what he’s been saying. We tried and we failed. BYE!


I don't 'hate women', I merely do not like a focus on diversity that excludes around half the population of this planet, and a much greater percentage of Star Wars fans. Also, exactly how did you 'try to prove me wrong'?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:29 am 
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JulesKD wrote:
Regulars: NOW do you believe me that this guy is an alt-right troll? Do you see what I had to do to show all of you? This is what I mean. I can see it right away, and yet here are some people like "Well I see what he's saying in some ways" and giving him the time of day.

Can you see how exhausting this is for women? We know right away what we're dealing with. It sucks seeing men we like going "Well let's just hear the other side." This guy literally just told me that I "egged someone on" into assaulting me.

Meanwhile, here is a version of the movie that Shane will like:

https://www.pedestrian.tv/entertainment/last-jedi-mra-fan-edit-women/


1. Regulars. That's rich, coming from someone who joined 9 days before me.
2. Exactly what do you mean 'what I had to do'?
3. I wasn't victim-blaming, if that is what you're trying to suggest. You were talking about an incident in the context of a controlled environment with multiple people trained in the same martial art. In that context, any injuries, be they minor or severe, cannot be construed as an 'assault' because both parties would, or at least should, be aware of the risks involved, to both combatants. I also said that being of a slighter build can be useful in some martial arts, but not others.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:43 am 
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shane1594 wrote:
Rocco wrote:
Can we ban this guy already?

I don’t think he’s alt right or a troll, but I do think he hates women and that’s enough for me.

Edit: dismissing him as a troll implies that he doesn’t actually feel this way, which he clearly does. I also think it’s worth trying to get people to see how they’re wrong when it’s something as ignorant as what he’s been saying. We tried and we failed. BYE!


I don't 'hate women', I merely do not like a focus on diversity that excludes around half the population of this planet, and a much greater percentage of Star Wars fans. Also, exactly how did you 'try to prove me wrong'?


You realize that the vast vast vast vast HUGE vast bulk of movies ever made ever in the history of ever are just about dudes and the women who swoon to follow them? Like, half the population of humanity, for the bulk of movies--hell, stage performances--has been just watching dudes do dude shit. How a few movies that don't adhere to the dudeness of dudeosity make you head for the fainting couch is really strange.

shane1594 wrote:
1. Societal expectations: A fair point.
2. Poe vs Leia: No. Poe's decision wasn't emotional, he clearly stated that Dreadnoughts are fleet killers, given what happened, it's pretty clear that he was right. That a second one showed up soon after, mere plot convenience. Firstly, Poe was a Battlefield Commander at the time, hence more knowledgeable about the situation at hand. Leia's facial expressions and the screen with all the losses displayed, showed that she was clearly affected deeply, so yes, it was.
3. I'll agree, but that sce ne epitomized everything wrong with how The Last Jedi completely ignored everything about the male characters from the last movie (except Kylo Ren).
4. Chain of command: I am no military man myself, but documentaries that I've seen, all mention something along the lines of 'being a good soldier doesn't mean blindly following orders'.
5. Dyed-hair, so emotional: That's not what I was saying. Also, it's not a direct link, it is just two traits that happen to coincide with one another.
6. Do not try to insinuate that I am incapable of critical thought when it is abundantly clear that I am. And, FYI, I am the older brother.
7. I have personally had multiple experiences with the type of person that I have described.


1. Oh holy hell, progress.
2. He was shouting, sweaty, in the cockpit during a pitched space battle. Yet reason won out? Huh. Leia, being force-sensitive, would have felt all those deaths, and as a general was sorrowful for the deaths. This doesn't make her quote-unquote emotional, it makes her a normal person.
3. I don't get this at all. Can you explain further?
4. There's a quote from the Neal Stephenson book Cryptonomicon that I just quoted to my boss about our mutual boss last week:
Quote:
The implied responsibility placed upon the officer’s shoulders by the subordinate’s unhesitating willingness to follow orders is a withering burden to any officer with half a brain, and Shaftoe has more than once seen seasoned noncoms reduce green lieutenants to quivering blobs simply by standing before them and agreeing, cheerfully, to carry out their orders.

(The real-life context of this is that our boss sometimes comes up with wacky ideas, and my policy is to express a mild reservation or two (if justified), then cheerfully do it, knowing that if it fails, wastes time, or costs him money, I was only doing what I was told, and if my initial reservations were correct it only helps my case next time around if I say "I think that's a bad idea". Before we get into "only following orders" Nuremberg territory, this only applies to merely dumb, not illegal ideas.)
Anyway, in any hierarchical and regimented organization like an army, a rebellion, a resistance, whatever, the chain of command should be respected regardless of coiffure.
5. Anecdotal.
6. Most ideas of the kind of certitude you're working with here were instilled by someone trusted. I had a lot of asshole friends when I was younger that put asshole ideas in my head. If you came up with them on your own without outside influence I'm curious how.
7. Not sure what this is referring to.


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