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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:24 pm 
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shane1594 wrote:
I found that thread to be full of people in an echo chamber celebrating The Last Jedi. As I hold differing opinions in certain areas, and similar ones in others, and given the likelihood of my post getting lost in the midst of them, I decided to create a new thread for it. Also, can you please tell me what you mean by 'newbie'.


I've known Rian since 1987. I apologize if a lifelong friendship colors my views of his work.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:43 pm 
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Justin wrote:
JulesKD wrote:
Well I'm a woman, so I'm not sorry. 8)


Utterly totally fair and correct, not that my feelings on how anyone wants to take anything matter one teeny bit.

As for me, I'm just attempting to be a more gracious, uh, host (I guess) in an attempt to foster a productive discussion. As I said in the other thread, I really like at least considering unattractive ideas to get where the holder of them is coming from, and at the outset of the thread here I was in kind of a crappy mood and the review set me off a bit. Sometimes (particularly on the internet, but--thankfully--not specifically here) it's like drinking raw sewage to see how sick it makes you. As with my friend's Star Trek story, it's more like having a glass of milk that you aren't sure is past its expiration date.



I get it, but also, others should get that I've been drinking this sewage all my life - from being a woman in male dominated hobbies like martial arts and video games - and honestly from just being a woman. I already know how sick the sewage makes me, because there's no way not to ingest at least a little bit every day. You know, I'm so far past the point of wondering "Hmm, this guy genuinely thinks a certain hairstyle on a woman is threatening to him, I wonder where that thinking is coming from?" Like, I don't even care where he came up with that, because I've been hearing some variation of that nonsense all my life. :)

But also: yeah, I like Rian's work in general, I like what he did with TLJ, and I am really into the important things he used the movie to say. If he'd done a total cock-up I might have a hard time admitting it, but I probably would do so. Though perhaps not here, LOL.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:06 pm 
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Kzap wrote:
shane1594 wrote:
I found that thread to be full of people in an echo chamber celebrating The Last Jedi. As I hold differing opinions in certain areas, and similar ones in others, and given the likelihood of my post getting lost in the midst of them, I decided to create a new thread for it. Also, can you please tell me what you mean by 'newbie'.

I mean you're new here (your account was created a few days ago and only has a few posts).

I keep thinking I should give you the benefit of the doubt but then I remember the facts:
- You found a discussions board dedicated to a certain director.
- You saw a discussion thread dedicated to his latest film.
- You thought your opinion was far too important to get "lost" in that thread so created a new one just so people can discuss your thoughts.
- You mostly criticize the film, without bringing many new points to the table that haven't been discussed in other threads.
- You have very strange views on women's hair styles and how they correlate to personality traits.

You're either a troll or have poor social skills and have trouble reading the room and finding the correct place to share your opinion. By all means a variety of opinions are welcome here but if you want to focus on your negative feelings towards something perhaps a fan-page dedicated to the creator of that thing isn't the right place to do it.


Again, not a troll. But, as to your points:
- You got the method wrong. I didn't 'find a board dedicated to a certain director, then find the discussion board, then... I had some concerns about The Last Jedi, and the possibility of them getting repeated in subsequent installments, so decided to write a letter and send it to Rian's offices, or the Star Wars division of Disney, bringing them up. But, I couldn't find an address; instead, I found this website. After which, I would point you to my previous post.
- The maturity of an account (or lack thereof), does not determine the validity of what is being said.
- I don't criticize the film. I am not a film maker, so I have no right to comment on the film aspects of The Last Jedi. That is why I restricted myself to the story being told within it. On top of that, I respect Rian Johnson as a creative person myself, and wish to leave it up to him how to deal with what I have said. However, if you want my solutions to the points I raised, here you go:
- Admiral Hondo: Give her actions more weight by not referencing Leia every time she's questioned about her actions and expect that that is enough information to give a military (field) commander. The problem compounds itself when it leads to an arc that ultimately lacks purpose.
- Rei & Snoke: Don't deal with both storylines at once.
- Don't make a point of the female's needing to humanise whichever male character happens to be floating in their sphere of influence, especially when it leads to the degradation of a character into either a flat character, or a Mary Sue.
- Again, I have no right telling anyone how to fix film-techniques.
- Subversions: Subvert the right things.
- The Hair: I wasn't particularly clear when I first raised it, but, like it or not, there exists a link between man-hating feminists, which Holdo seems to be, and short, brightly dyed, hair, not the other way around. I would much rather Rian have subverted that trend rather than some of the more blatant ones that he did. Also, it is clearly unprofessional when she is the only one that has dyed their hair.


Justin wrote:
shane1594 wrote:
I found that thread to be full of people in an echo chamber celebrating The Last Jedi. As I hold differing opinions in certain areas, and similar ones in others, and given the likelihood of my post getting lost in the midst of them, I decided to create a new thread for it. Also, can you please tell me what you mean by 'newbie'.


I've known Rian since 1987. I apologize if a lifelong friendship colors my views of his work.


I have no problems with that, believe me. I haven't, and, just going from the previous works he's done, Rian can make a very good movie, there's no doubt of that. I did stipulate that at the very beginning of the original post.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:02 pm 
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shane1594 wrote:
- The maturity of an account (or lack thereof), does not determine the validity of what is being said.


You're being willfully obtuse here. Of course it doesn't. He's talking about the fact that you've essentially shown up to a house party full of old friends and started disagreeing with everyone. Like, yeah this particular house party let's anyone in, but there are certain unwritten rules, no?

shane1594 wrote:
- I don't criticize the film. I am not a film maker, so I have no right to comment on the film aspects of The Last Jedi.


Actually, you absolutely have the right to criticize the film, even if you aren't a filmmaker, so long as you understand certain aspects of the medium, which I think you do. Still, as you said, your qualms are with story and THAT is where people are taking issue with what seems like (hopefully) accidental misogyny.

To your later points, it seems like you just kind of hate feminism and I really don't get that. I am going to confess something now... I did not like The Last Jedi. I saw it twice because I was VERY jealous of everyone else on here (and my friends IRL and my entire family) and was bummed not to be able to join in the fun. And, to be honest, I agree with maybe two of your points. But seeing the reasons why what seems like the overwhelming majority of other people don't like it is even more upsetting. I have found myself constantly defending a movie that I didn't even enjoy (outside of a few insanely creative and fun parts).

There are many who think that Rian has ruined Star Wars or made a bad movie. This is so obviously not the case, as there are ten times that many people who have clearly had the SW universe improved for them, by this film. You're allowed to not like some of the subversion, the tone, a character or two... legitimate gripes. But please, please do not give "feminist haircut" or this tired ass Mary Sue argument as reasons. They are bad reasons. Whatever your problems with the film may be, the progressive elements, inclusion of so many characters of different races and ethnicities, and the continuation of Rey as one of the most badass characters in modern cinema are GREAT things. Full stop.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:27 pm 
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Your use of "females" and "man-hating feminists" simply disqualifies you from opening your mouth. Like, it just completely negates anything else you could ever have to say.

For what it's worth, I am glad that it bothered you, though. 8)


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:26 pm 
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JulesKD wrote:
Your use of "females" and "man-hating feminists" simply disqualifies you from opening your mouth. Like, it just completely negates anything else you could ever have to say.

For what it's worth, I am glad that it bothered you, though. 8)


I worked with a kid that would pull the "feeeeeemales" thing all the time. After trying to get him out of the habit for a while, I learned that "they prefer to be called women" would at least make him look a little shamefaced when he slipped up.

Anyway. I made a croissant with Havarti and garlic herb jack cheese with some salami on it today.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:15 pm 
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Rocco wrote:
shane1594 wrote:
- The maturity of an account (or lack thereof), does not determine the validity of what is being said.


You're being willfully obtuse here. Of course it doesn't. He's talking about the fact that you've essentially shown up to a house party full of old friends and started disagreeing with everyone. Like, yeah this particular house party let's anyone in, but there are certain unwritten rules, no?

shane1594 wrote:
- I don't criticize the film. I am not a film maker, so I have no right to comment on the film aspects of The Last Jedi.


Actually, you absolutely have the right to criticize the film, even if you aren't a filmmaker, so long as you understand certain aspects of the medium, which I think you do. Still, as you said, your qualms are with story and THAT is where people are taking issue with what seems like (hopefully) accidental misogyny.

To your later points, it seems like you just kind of hate feminism and I really don't get that. I am going to confess something now... I did not like The Last Jedi. I saw it twice because I was VERY jealous of everyone else on here (and my friends IRL and my entire family) and was bummed not to be able to join in the fun. And, to be honest, I agree with maybe two of your points. But seeing the reasons why what seems like the overwhelming majority of other people don't like it is even more upsetting. I have found myself constantly defending a movie that I didn't even enjoy (outside of a few insanely creative and fun parts).

There are many who think that Rian has ruined Star Wars or made a bad movie. This is so obviously not the case, as there are ten times that many people who have clearly had the SW universe improved for them, by this film. You're allowed to not like some of the subversion, the tone, a character or two... legitimate gripes. But please, please do not give "feminist haircut" or this tired ass Mary Sue argument as reasons. They are bad reasons. Whatever your problems with the film may be, the progressive elements, inclusion of so many characters of different races and ethnicities, and the continuation of Rey as one of the most badass characters in modern cinema are GREAT things. Full stop.


Thank you for that. It is not so much accidental as it is misconstrued. You see, I am very much egalitarian in my views, unfortunately in the context of The Last Jedi, there is an unfortunate lack of distinction between the two. I have no problems with badass characters, female or otherwise. So long as they are both believable and have identifiable flaws, which, unfortunately, Rey is currently lacking, though I will admit that Rian's setting her against only one opponent whilst Kylo took on two or three at a time was a good touch. And again, it's not the haircut that I have issues with, it's the actions; the haircut just has an unfortunate tendency to appear alongside the actions. And, lastly, I would like to say that I don't think that Rian has 'ruined Star Wars' by any means. I just think that he's made JJ Abrams' job in Episode IX a lot tougher than it otherwise would have been.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:49 pm 
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Justin wrote:
JulesKD wrote:
Your use of "females" and "man-hating feminists" simply disqualifies you from opening your mouth. Like, it just completely negates anything else you could ever have to say.

For what it's worth, I am glad that it bothered you, though. 8)


I worked with a kid that would pull the "feeeeeemales" thing all the time. After trying to get him out of the habit for a while, I learned that "they prefer to be called women" would at least make him look a little shamefaced when he slipped up.

Anyway. I made a croissant with Havarti and garlic herb jack cheese with some salami on it today.



It is actually pretty nice that there are dudes out there who don't stand for that, so sincerely, way to be.

Like, it's always disheartening when there's some bro coming into places like "BUT THE FEMALES AND THE MAN HATING FEMINISTS!" and other men give him the time of day. :roll:

That's what it's like being a woman, BTW, in a place with mostly men.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:32 pm 
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JulesKD wrote:
It is actually pretty nice that there are dudes out there who don't stand for that, so sincerely, way to be.

Like, it's always disheartening when there's some bro coming into places like "BUT THE FEMALES AND THE MAN HATING FEMINISTS!" and other men give him the time of day. :roll:

That's what it's like being a woman, BTW, in a place with mostly men.



Totally. I was trying to be careful with my reply way up there, as I just wanted to agree with you, then ended up saying "yeah, that's right!" in a way that sounded like you needed to pass my (or anyone's) approval to not want the garbage hose to be a thing.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:36 pm 
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JulesKD wrote:
Justin wrote:
JulesKD wrote:
Your use of "females" and "man-hating feminists" simply disqualifies you from opening your mouth. Like, it just completely negates anything else you could ever have to say.

For what it's worth, I am glad that it bothered you, though. 8)


I worked with a kid that would pull the "feeeeeemales" thing all the time. After trying to get him out of the habit for a while, I learned that "they prefer to be called women" would at least make him look a little shamefaced when he slipped up.

Anyway. I made a croissant with Havarti and garlic herb jack cheese with some salami on it today.



It is actually pretty nice that there are dudes out there who don't stand for that, so sincerely, way to be.

Like, it's always disheartening when there's some bro coming into places like "BUT THE FEMALES AND THE MAN HATING FEMINISTS!" and other men give him the time of day. :roll:

That's what it's like being a woman, BTW, in a place with mostly men.



At the theater, whenever I talk to people about the movie (who didn’t like it) they go “yeah isn’t it ridiculous how many women are in Star Wars all of a sudden? And, like, they’re so strong? How?” And I’m just in awe, like “please don’t make what i think are legit gripes look bad”. It’s hard being lumped in with misogynists and neo nazis... then again, it’s a lot harder having to listen to people talk about your hair color and how that relates to hating men by default...


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:56 pm 
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JulesKD wrote:
Justin wrote:
JulesKD wrote:
Well I'm a woman, so I'm not sorry. 8)


Utterly totally fair and correct, not that my feelings on how anyone wants to take anything matter one teeny bit.

As for me, I'm just attempting to be a more gracious, uh, host (I guess) in an attempt to foster a productive discussion. As I said in the other thread, I really like at least considering unattractive ideas to get where the holder of them is coming from, and at the outset of the thread here I was in kind of a crappy mood and the review set me off a bit. Sometimes (particularly on the internet, but--thankfully--not specifically here) it's like drinking raw sewage to see how sick it makes you. As with my friend's Star Trek story, it's more like having a glass of milk that you aren't sure is past its expiration date.



I get it, but also, others should get that I've been drinking this sewage all my life - from being a woman in male dominated hobbies like martial arts and video games - and honestly from just being a woman. I already know how sick the sewage makes me, because there's no way not to ingest at least a little bit every day. You know, I'm so far past the point of wondering "Hmm, this guy genuinely thinks a certain hairstyle on a woman is threatening to him, I wonder where that thinking is coming from?" Like, I don't even care where he came up with that, because I've been hearing some variation of that nonsense all my life. :)


No, not totally fair. Ones gender does not excuse ones actions, ever, and Jules, I am sorry about your experience in gaming, but I have trained in multiple martial arts (not MMA), so trust me when I say, that being female in certain arts can be beneficial(i.e. Judo, Jujitsu, or some other martial art that has a focus on throws), but, even then, that is only to a point. If you're talking about something like boxing, then it is likely them being concerned for your well-being. The unfortunate thing in that situation, is the way that you are interpreting it.

Rocco wrote:
JulesKD wrote:
Justin wrote:

I worked with a kid that would pull the "feeeeeemales" thing all the time. After trying to get him out of the habit for a while, I learned that "they prefer to be called women" would at least make him look a little shamefaced when he slipped up.

Anyway. I made a croissant with Havarti and garlic herb jack cheese with some salami on it today.



It is actually pretty nice that there are dudes out there who don't stand for that, so sincerely, way to be.

Like, it's always disheartening when there's some bro coming into places like "BUT THE FEMALES AND THE MAN HATING FEMINISTS!" and other men give him the time of day. :roll:

That's what it's like being a woman, BTW, in a place with mostly men.



At the theater, whenever I talk to people about the movie (who didn’t like it) they go “yeah isn’t it ridiculous how many women are in Star Wars all of a sudden? And, like, they’re so strong? How?” And I’m just in awe, like “please don’t make what i think are legit gripes look bad”. It’s hard being lumped in with misogynists and neo nazis... then again, it’s a lot harder having to listen to people talk about your hair color and how that relates to hating men by default...


Again, it isn't about the hair colour! How many times? My problems with Admiral Holdo is how she was treating her high-rank subordinates (specifically Poe). It just so happens that, in real life, there happens to be a relation between a certain type of woman (see, I can do it too) having very short hair, and dyeing it unrealistic colours.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:38 pm 
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shane1594 wrote:
No, not totally fair. Ones gender does not excuse ones actions, ever, and Jules, I am sorry about your experience in gaming, but I have trained in multiple martial arts (not MMA), so trust me when I say, that being female in certain arts can be beneficial(i.e. Judo, Jujitsu, or some other martial art that has a focus on throws), but, even then, that is only to a point. If you're talking about something like boxing, then it is likely them being concerned for your well-being. The unfortunate thing in that situation, is the way that you are interpreting it.

.....

Again, it isn't about the hair colour! How many times? My problems with Admiral Holdo is how she was treating her high-rank subordinates (specifically Poe). It just so happens that, in real life, there happens to be a relation between a certain type of woman (see, I can do it too) having very short hair, and dyeing it unrealistic colours.


The problem isn't the hair color, it's the way you're interpreting it. (See, I can do, etc.)

Next up: thought experiment. Imagine it's Ackbar instead of Holdo. Would you have a problem with him doing every single thing exactly the same way? You don't need to tell us, just think on it.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:47 pm 
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Justin wrote:
shane1594 wrote:
No, not totally fair. Ones gender does not excuse ones actions, ever, and Jules, I am sorry about your experience in gaming, but I have trained in multiple martial arts (not MMA), so trust me when I say, that being female in certain arts can be beneficial(i.e. Judo, Jujitsu, or some other martial art that has a focus on throws), but, even then, that is only to a point. If you're talking about something like boxing, then it is likely them being concerned for your well-being. The unfortunate thing in that situation, is the way that you are interpreting it.

.....

Again, it isn't about the hair colour! How many times? My problems with Admiral Holdo is how she was treating her high-rank subordinates (specifically Poe). It just so happens that, in real life, there happens to be a relation between a certain type of woman (see, I can do it too) having very short hair, and dyeing it unrealistic colours.


The problem isn't the hair color, it's the way you're interpreting it. (See, I can do, etc.)

Next up: thought experiment. Imagine it's Ackbar instead of Holdo. Would you have a problem with him doing every single thing exactly the same way? You don't need to tell us, just think on it.


I like the Ackbar question because I think it partially speaks to the problem that *I* had with the Holdo stuff and that is that her death was too good for what was basically a new, tertiary character. She has probably the best death in the entire saga and I just didn't think it was earned, if that makes sense. Not that her character wasn't good, but just that I hadn't yet made any emotional connection to her whatsoever. I've seen people saying it "should've been Ackbar" but I think that'd be equally unearned and also would cheapen it since he's a meme (which is maybe why they didn't show his death?). I just love that sequence so much that I really wish it'd been Leia and turned me into a blubbering mess of about 90000000 emotions in its perfect silence. But then we'd lose the great stuff with her at the end, so I can't win.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:43 pm 
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Rocco wrote:
Justin wrote:
shane1594 wrote:
No, not totally fair. Ones gender does not excuse ones actions, ever, and Jules, I am sorry about your experience in gaming, but I have trained in multiple martial arts (not MMA), so trust me when I say, that being female in certain arts can be beneficial(i.e. Judo, Jujitsu, or some other martial art that has a focus on throws), but, even then, that is only to a point. If you're talking about something like boxing, then it is likely them being concerned for your well-being. The unfortunate thing in that situation, is the way that you are interpreting it.

.....

Again, it isn't about the hair colour! How many times? My problems with Admiral Holdo is how she was treating her high-rank subordinates (specifically Poe). It just so happens that, in real life, there happens to be a relation between a certain type of woman (see, I can do it too) having very short hair, and dyeing it unrealistic colours.


The problem isn't the hair color, it's the way you're interpreting it. (See, I can do, etc.)

Next up: thought experiment. Imagine it's Ackbar instead of Holdo. Would you have a problem with him doing every single thing exactly the same way? You don't need to tell us, just think on it.


I like the Ackbar question because I think it partially speaks to the problem that *I* had with the Holdo stuff and that is that her death was too good for what was basically a new, tertiary character. She has probably the best death in the entire saga and I just didn't think it was earned, if that makes sense. Not that her character wasn't good, but just that I hadn't yet made any emotional connection to her whatsoever. I've seen people saying it "should've been Ackbar" but I think that'd be equally unearned and also would cheapen it since he's a meme (which is maybe why they didn't show his death?). I just love that sequence so much that I really wish it'd been Leia and turned me into a blubbering mess of about 90000000 emotions in its perfect silence. But then we'd lose the great stuff with her at the end, so I can't win.

Honestly I don't think I could take Ackbar seriously in such a role, his voice and limited facial expression were fine for the occasional line in the original trilogy but personally I don't think he should have returned for this new series and I my brain keeps forgetting he's in them at all (for the better I think).
I feel like Rian had to include him in this one because he was in The Force Awakens and he was only included in that because of the popularity of him as a meme (which is a bad reason to include a character), I for one am glad he's dead and he went without much ceremony.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:46 pm 
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shane1594 wrote:
in real life, there happens to be a relation between a certain type of woman (see, I can do it too) having very short hair, and dyeing it unrealistic colours.

Is there though? I'd like to see you cite your sources on this (beyond a misogynist meme).
Off the top of my head I can think of three women I've known who've have had short, brightly dyed hair and not one of them fits that description but seeing as you're the one making that assertion the burden of proof is on you to prove the relation.


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