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 Post subject: TLJ and Consent
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:11 am 
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Let me start by saying I absolutely loved The Last Jedi. After 5 viewings it is easily my favorite Star Wars film to date. There are so many fantastic things about this film: The cast of diverse, interesting characters. The gorgeous cinematography. The way the story makes you question what you think you know to be true about Star Wars. This film is a cinema experience that nothing else has even come close to.

However, I have one major reservation about this film, which is how consent (or lack-thereof) is depicted in the film. Specifically, I'm referring to the scene where Rose forces a kiss on Finn. Through the film, there is no indication that Finn and Rose's relationship is anything other than platonic, and Finn gives Rose no reason to think otherwise. From the viewer's perspective, we know that Finn's heart is with Rey, and probably doesn't have any romantic feelings towards Rose. Therefore, for Rose to kiss Finn in that moment is completely unwarranted and can be defined as sexual assault.

I understand that Rian likely had different intentions in mind when he created that scene, but this is something that needs to be broached given what we've lived through in the last year. Forcing yourself on somebody without their consent is never okay regardless of gender. I am hoping this will be addressed in part IX with perhaps Finn telling Rose that her actions uncalled for. I would not want my children to see that scene and get the impression those kind of actions are okay.

Anyway, please feel free to share your thoughts on this. This is something that has been troubling me since my first viewing and I needed to get it off my chest.


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 Post subject: Re: TLJ and Consent
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:31 pm 
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I see what you're saying. I think this is a Hollywood trope that has overstayed its welcome. It doesn't ruin the movie for me. The reason it surprised me is because of what you described: there was never any indication that there was anything between them. Toward the end, after that moment - yes, that's when I started getting that feeling.

I don't love the pairing, but that's what fanfiction is for, if you ask me. :) I love both characters.

And yeah, it might be my favorite SW film to date, too. I thought it was glorious.


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 Post subject: Re: TLJ and Consent
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:22 pm 
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I think the conversation of consent has been blown way out of proportion by how horrible some of the things about certain men in the 'industry' act. A kiss is just a kiss. My grandmother kisses me all the darn time without me asking. That being said I have been known to ask women in the past if I can kiss them, so consent for a kiss is also nice. And it's not like Finn was like "no wtf are you doing?" he was more like "huh? Kiss ok, weird time for a kiss, but you just saved me so I'll hold it for a little" but it's not like she shoved her fucking tongue down his throat. Excuse my language, but you get what I'm saying. And I'm sure it'll be addressed in the next episode. In fact I think it'll go something like:

FINN
So you kisse-

ROSE
Yeah that was in the heat of the moment. Not that into you.

FINN
Ok, because I'm sorta into Poe Dameron

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 Post subject: Re: TLJ and Consent
PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:51 pm 
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Well I'll be totally up front, no one kisses my kid without his explicit consent. Not me, not his grandma, not family or anyone. But that's how our family does that kind of thing.

I don't think anyone here is staying that she rammed her tongue down his throat. I think the main issue is that there wasn't much of an indication earlier that they had any kind of spark that would make it less weird. (Aside from when she tazed him :lol: )


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 Post subject: Re: TLJ and Consent
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:08 pm 
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JulesKD wrote:
I see what you're saying. I think this is a Hollywood trope that has overstayed its welcome. It doesn't ruin the movie for me. The reason it surprised me is because of what you described: there was never any indication that there was anything between them. Toward the end, after that moment - yes, that's when I started getting that feeling.

I disagree with that part actually, I think it was pretty clear at the start that she idealized that "idea" of him before she quickly realized he wasn't the larger than life hero she'd built him up to be, over the course of the film she starts falling for him again.
However I don't think he was in to her, I read the kiss as her letting out her feelings for him and him being startled.
As for the conversation about consent I completely agree it's not acceptable behavior (it's not like she has the excuse of misreading a sign) but it is a trope of the genre and one I think Rian subverts somewhat.
She's not "rewarded" for taking the "initiative" of forcing a kiss upon him, he doesn't kiss her back or profess his love for her, he reacts in a realistic way (from what I can remember).
This isn't the first example of this in the franchise, I remember correctly Luke surprises Leia with a kiss in ANH before their daring rope swing and she does the same to him at the start of ESB in an attempt to make Han jealous, which has an extra eww factor considering their family ties.
I almost think acknowledging and subverting the trope is better than simply ignoring it, but that could change depending on where the next film takes their relationship.
I'm not a huge shipper but I'm still holding out for Poe/Finn.


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 Post subject: Re: TLJ and Consent
PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:39 pm 
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See I didn't see her falling for him at all, until that moment. It was really out of the blue to me.

I was trying to remember if Luke sprang that kiss on Leia before or after he said "for luck," but yeah I think it was after. And then in Empire yup... :shock: Ugh man the whole incest thing :o

But aside from that. I just didn't see any indication prior to that kiss, and the way she fell over after that, I really thought she had been fridged, so at the moment I was like "Aww.. wait, what? Wait... WHAT?"

When Finn was sitting by her bedside Rey gave them a look that I interpreted as resigned. ?? IDK. Honestly I wasn't sure what that whole bit was there for.

I'd love to see some Finn/Poe too but I doubt it.


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 Post subject: Re: TLJ and Consent
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:34 am 
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I read it as a) cinematic shorthand, not a statement on consent, and b) an "I might die so I gotta do this now" gesture.

What's weird is our double standard here: it's also not approved to get in sword (laser or otherwise) fights with your nephew or your boss' guards, or fight in giant space battles, but we give that a pass because "it's just a movie".


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 Post subject: Re: TLJ and Consent
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:35 am 
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Giant space battles aren't approved?

Shit! I gotta make some phonecalls...

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 Post subject: Re: TLJ and Consent
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:47 am 
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The Department of Space Battles is pretty particular on the right permits.


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 Post subject: Re: TLJ and Consent
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:18 pm 
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IDK but all my life I was under the impression that we already disapproved of the actions of the bad guys? And even the good guys? Like even Luke acknowledges that he feels ashamed about considering what he did. Is that just me? We already knew these were conflicts and imperfections, and in some cases villainy?


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 Post subject: Re: TLJ and Consent
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:23 pm 
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I was making kind of a stretch of a point about how violence is just, like, a thing that happens, but anything with icky girl or boy parts is NOT FOR THE KIDS. It's really weird how much violent stuff is just accepted.

* I should point out I kind of became cognizant of this 10 or so years ago watching Doctor Who, where in the early seasons if anything violent happened, it was almost always suggested by the reaction shots rather than being lovingly curated into an orgy of blood 'n' guts. But it's nominally a children's show, so it makes sense they'd leave the gross bits out.

(Sub-note to the previous note: I am now very off-topic, please ignore me.)


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 Post subject: Re: TLJ and Consent
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:50 am 
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Justin wrote:
I was making kind of a stretch of a point about how violence is just, like, a thing that happens, but anything with icky girl or boy parts is NOT FOR THE KIDS. It's really weird how much violent stuff is just accepted.


Used to have this exact opinion, but the more I’ve thought about it I’ve realized that it’s because people watching movies where people kill people aren’t going out and killing people. But people often get everything they know about sex and romance from movies. Maybe?


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 Post subject: Re: TLJ and Consent
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:44 am 
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(insert montage of "video gaems r making the childrenz violentTTT!!!!!!11" here)


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 Post subject: Re: TLJ and Consent
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:07 am 
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I agree with that. I think, though, that it's less "people aren't gonna kill people" and more "we're total puritans" (at least in this country.)

Which is also not to say that I think it's okay to porn it up or have salacious gratuitous bonking in all these movies. (Honestly I'm so over that stuff just because mostly, it doesn't seem necessary, but also because it makes it awkward to watch with, like, your relatives or even your friends sometimes.)

But I just think that other countries have a healthier response to things like nudity and such.


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 Post subject: Re: TLJ and Consent
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:59 am 
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^^^^^

I'm not being all like "we need more naked parts all over the place", just that the double standard is really weird to me. Violence is pretty gross (though conflict being a part of drama it does sometimes need to be there, just not all Eli-Roth-style where someone is lovingly grinding someone's face into, like, a face grinder for twenty minutes), sex (or even just the wrong body parts being visible) is icky to the weird puritan mindset that still hovers over America generally, so we err on the side of SUPER COOL GUN BATTLES.

I had a roommate that liked to watch movies while he worked at home. I would joke (because he would watch them REALLY LOUD and it was a small place) that it sounded like these movies consisted nearly entirely of screeching tires, broken glass, and gunshots. I'm sure there was a lot more going on, but all those being kind of high-frequency sounds it's all I would hear through our doors. But those three sounds happened REALLY OFTEN, and slowly I realized through my irritation that I didn't have a ton of interest in movies that centered around those things.

Not sure what my point is here. Anyway.


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