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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:45 am 
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sarahalyse wrote:
Day Glo wrote:
A fair bit of iffy stuff in the first half hour or so. Fed up with the "here's another famous woman from history who is in love with the Doctor" thing.

To be fair, Ten said in one of his episodes that he was briefly married to Queen Elizabeth. I thought it was fun to finally see the circumstances that lead to it.

In general, I really liked it. I LOVED having Tennant back. I like the plot and was won over by their justification for not pushing the button. I liked John Hurt. I was even totally fine with Billie Piper's presence. But here are a few things I didn't dig.

I agree with all that, here are my attempts to try and explain away some of your problems

sarahalyse wrote:
The girl with the scarf. Was that supposed to imply that she'd met the Fourth, or was it just a straight-up fan shout-out? It was way too much scarf to wear indoors, so it came off as pretty fourth-wall-breaky (if you'll pardon the pun).

I pretty much agree with this one, I think it was meant to imply she was just a fan of the Doctor like that group from Love and Monsters (*shudders*), she had an inhaler and seemed pretty "nerdy".

sarahalyse wrote:
What happened with the Zygons in the end? They totally dropped that entire plot thread. Is that going to be dealt with in the Christmas special, I wonder?

They brokered a treaty, so I assumed that was the end of it, maybe they're harmlessly living with us maybe they're gone.

sarahalyse wrote:
Tom Baker what? I was delighted by his presence, but...who was he supposed to actually be? More fourth-wall-breaking? More unintentional puns? If there wasn't a canonically set number of regenerations, I'd say that some day in the misty future he managed to regenerate into an older version of one of his past selves (why not) and actually did retire for awhile and become the curator of the National Museum. But there is, so he can't be.

Yea but we don't think they're actually going to stick to that number do we? They're not just going to end the show after 50 odd years. Although Moffat assures us they are :P youtu.be/F1iKSsn8WPc?t=4m16s
Isn't the maximum number of regenerations 13? So Capaldi's existence already proves they got around that.

sarahalyse wrote:
The gaping Eccleston-shaped hole. It felt like he ought to have been there, especially for that last shot, where their stand-in was aggressively too short. I think it was rather shabby of him to refuse, but given that one of his reasons for leaving was (at least reportedly) that he didn't like the fan culture, I guess he wouldn't care about disappointing us?

Yea, I pretty much agree with this year. His presence was missed.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:47 am 
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Kzap wrote:
Isn't the maximum number of regenerations 13? So Capaldi's existence already proves they got around that.

13 regenerations = 14 Doctors (assuming, and I think this is correct, that Hartnell is canonically the first incarnation of the Doctor, making Troughton the first regeneration).


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:58 am 
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Day Glo wrote:
Kzap wrote:
Isn't the maximum number of regenerations 13? So Capaldi's existence already proves they got around that.

13 regenerations = 14 Doctors (assuming, and I think this is correct, that Hartnell is canonically the first incarnation of the Doctor, making Troughton the first regeneration).

I thought it was 12 regenerations (13 bodies), either way it's going to be "solved" in the Christmas episode, I hope they don't dedicate too much time to it and just write it out with a line. I don't really want to see an entire episode dedicated to the Doctor finding an exception to an obscure role that fans have dug out of the history of the show.
They already made a joke about it when he appeared on the Sarah Jane Adventures http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9D-2HJMD9s
Continuity is always a bit wobbly with this show and that's okay, it has to be for it to last this long without collapsing under its own logic. It's like a comic book series.

It's extra ridicules to obsess over the rule because it was introduced with The Master when he was on his "last regeneration" and since his "last regeneration" that he has returned as Derek Jacobi and John Simm with no mention of the rule.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:20 am 
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They waved it away with "the Time Lords brought me back and gave me additional regenerations" in one of those episodes. Now that Gallifrey canonically exists again, all he has to do is find it and have them do the same for him. Or, even more hand-wavingly, just have someone mention "good thing we got rid of that regeneration limit" in passing.

The vibe I got from Baker's appearance is that he's a much much later regeneration, perhaps a retired one that now calls himself The Curator. What they're leaning toward confirming is that there's some degree of control in regenerations, between the Master requesting a young body, the minisode with McGann, and now Baker mentioning "old favorites". Also, I think his "Who knows? Who...nose?" line was great.

It is a shame Eccleston didn't show up, but one thing you can't say is that he's not a man of his word. He's probably annoyed at the two clips of him they did show.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:18 am 
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I loved it and was irritated by it in turns. I already discussed some of this with David on Tumblr.

YES, I was super annoyed by the Elizabeth I thing. I was super annoyed by it even in The Shakespeare Code. Here's one of the most powerful women in British history, who stayed unmarried for her own reasons, and Moffat turns her into a simpering, lovestruck, jealous harpy.

And of course, having to refer to Clara as a man, because she was tough? Smart? Helpful?

I can't get past Moffat's hatred of women. And no, I don't think that's too strong a word. I watched the special because I wanted to see Tennant and Piper. And I loved those two. And I really enjoyed Ten and Eleven together. And John Hurt was fantastic! (Even though I kept saying "YOUNG WARLOCK" after every one of his lines. ;D ) But the whole thing kind of fell apart in retrospect, as many of Moffat's storylines do.

Like, if Gallifrey never fell, then the High Council never implanted the drumming into The Master's mind, and he never got pissed and crazy and did the whole arc that led up to Ten's regeneration. And the whole stuff with Martha and her family, and the Toclofane thingie things?

This morning, Blink was on. That's always been one of my favorites. But I found myself watching it as I fed the baby and thinking, "Why have Billy Shipton put cryptic messages on DVDs for Sally? Why not just make her a DVD saying, "Here's what the Weeping Angels are and here's what you need to do." And then have someone deliver it to her. You know, like the letter that her best friend got to her.

And why not just take a sledgehammer to the Weeping Angels when they turn into stone? :lol:

I miss loving Doctor Who and I can't wait until Moffat is gone.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:04 pm 
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JulesKD wrote:
Like, if Gallifrey never fell, then the High Council never implanted the drumming into The Master's mind, and he never got pissed and crazy and did the whole arc that led up to Ten's regeneration. And the whole stuff with Martha and her family, and the Toclofane thingie things?

"Sir, we still can't reach the High Council!"
"Forget about them, they have their own plans."
~ dialogue from Day of the Doctor

(And The Master was pretty much always crazy, right? I don't like John Simm as the Master, tbh. Left tooth marks all over the furniture.)

I've just watched it a second time, and I actually think that, for theme and structure Day of the Doctor is pretty brilliant. The choice of villain, the gradually building scale of the story, the way every scene plays into and off the mythology of the character and the basic idea of the show, the philosophical implications of time-travel... There are still weak points. Moffat still has his flaws, but this script is a reminder of exactly why he got this job. This was the return of the writer of The Empty Child and Silence in the Library.


Also, it occurs to me that the return of Gallifrey will be an excellent thing for the show, but not for the universe. Gallifrey is an almost infinitely technologically advanced military state with weapons so powerful, so vicious that they forbade themselves from using them... and then used them anyway. Suddenly, Gallifrey finds itself with no military power opposing them or limiting their reach. I wonder what they'll do?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:36 pm 
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^I don't think The Master was always crazy. I seem to remember that The Evil Council (sorry, that's how I refer to them in my head, always in the voice of Betty from Kung Pow - Enter The Fist e.g. "THE EEEVIL COUNCIIIL ARE AAAALIENS!") implanted Crazy into his head just to be dicks? It's been a while since I saw that episode though, and I only watched it once, so I could easily be wrong.

John Simm was totally a Large Ham but I loved him for that. :lol:

See, and to me, this is so typical of Moffat. I always have the same reaction to his episodes. I start out loving them, then I have that 3 AM "But wait, that's stupid," moment. He can write some clever ideas and he can definitely write scary things. I think it bothers me because I really really *want* to love these episodes.

I think that Gallifrey's return could add a new ZING to the show. Something to aim for, I guess. I'm just so over his stinking attitude and those insults he slips in that he seems to think are so sly. He makes me grind my teeth.

However, I really really like Peter Capaldi so I do want to watch him play The Doctor.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:34 pm 
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Kzap: Capaldi breaking the rule? How'd you figure? 13 regenerations would mean 14 bodies, so that means there'd even be one more after Capaldi.

Justin: That's exactly what I said, re: Tom Baker as a later regen who becomes a curator. It's just that would imply doing away with the rule of 12/13/whatever number they said.

Jules: Regarding the fall of Gallifrey and The Master and so on, it appeared to me that they froze Gallifrey at the exact second that they were supposed to have destroyed it. Hence why 11 initially said, "We'll never know if it worked." And then 10 and the War Doctor forget everything because of timey wimey stuff, of course. It had to be that way, otherwise yeah, obviously a bunch of shit from the last eight years wouldn't make sense anymore. They're not that stupid about canon.


When all is said and done, Scarf Girl and The Curator (I wonder if he pinched the copy girl's babush before visiting the Doctor?) as well as the Doctor reading a book with a police box on the cover in the beginning all read to me as fourth-wall-breaking fan service. I, for one, am not a fan.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:20 pm 
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sarahalyse wrote:
Kzap: Capaldi breaking the rule? How'd you figure? 13 regenerations would mean 14 bodies, so that means there'd even be one more after Capaldi.


12 regens. 13 bodies. 12 calling themselves Doctor. Capaldi is the last. Except Moffat has, apparently, been saying that Capaldi is actually the 14th.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:40 am 
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williamthebloody wrote:
sarahalyse wrote:
Kzap: Capaldi breaking the rule? How'd you figure? 13 regenerations would mean 14 bodies, so that means there'd even be one more after Capaldi.


12 regens. 13 bodies. 12 calling themselves Doctor. Capaldi is the last. Except Moffat has, apparently, been saying that Capaldi is actually the 14th.


Whether it's 13 or 14, Capaldi still isn't breaking the rule. Where is Moffat saying that? The only quote I saw from him on the subject reaffirmed that since John Hurt wasn't calling himself the Doctor, the numbering system is still valid. Then again, he also said that the numbers have no use within the show, that the Doctor is always just the Doctor, contradicting that one episode where Matt Smith refers to himself as "11."

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:44 am 
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sarahalyse wrote:
williamthebloody wrote:
sarahalyse wrote:
Kzap: Capaldi breaking the rule? How'd you figure? 13 regenerations would mean 14 bodies, so that means there'd even be one more after Capaldi.


12 regens. 13 bodies. 12 calling themselves Doctor. Capaldi is the last. Except Moffat has, apparently, been saying that Capaldi is actually the 14th.


Whether it's 13 or 14, Capaldi still isn't breaking the rule. Where is Moffat saying that? The only quote I saw from him on the subject reaffirmed that since John Hurt wasn't calling himself the Doctor, the numbering system is still valid. Then again, he also said that the numbers have no use within the show, that the Doctor is always just the Doctor, contradicting that one episode where Matt Smith refers to himself as "11."

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2013-11- ... as-cracker
"On Saturday he told me Matt is actually the 13th and final doctor. John Hurt is officially now a doctor and David Tennant used up an extra regeneration during his stay."
It's not from the man himself so don't take it as gospel but personally I'd rather they got over this regeneration limit sooner rather than later


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:10 am 
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Good points. A little stretchy, but doable, I guess.

Here's another thing that bugged me out a little. So when Gallifrey disappears, the Daleks, what? Accidentally keep shooting at each other until they're gone? They don't go
"Oh hey, that's not Gallifrey anymore, that's each other, TERMINATE EXTERMINATION" or anything? I found that logic a little implausible, too. Or did I totally misunderstand that?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:01 am 
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Kzap wrote:
sarahalyse wrote:
williamthebloody wrote:
12 regens. 13 bodies. 12 calling themselves Doctor. Capaldi is the last. Except Moffat has, apparently, been saying that Capaldi is actually the 14th.


Whether it's 13 or 14, Capaldi still isn't breaking the rule. Where is Moffat saying that? The only quote I saw from him on the subject reaffirmed that since John Hurt wasn't calling himself the Doctor, the numbering system is still valid. Then again, he also said that the numbers have no use within the show, that the Doctor is always just the Doctor, contradicting that one episode where Matt Smith refers to himself as "11."

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2013-11- ... as-cracker
"On Saturday he told me Matt is actually the 13th and final doctor. John Hurt is officially now a doctor and David Tennant used up an extra regeneration during his stay."
It's not from the man himself so don't take it as gospel but personally I'd rather they got over this regeneration limit sooner rather than later


Is THAT what they are basing it on? After DoTD, Moffat confirmed that Hurt was a regeneration and said that technically you could COUNT the metacrisis Doctor as a full regen but he never stated it actually was

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If what I have to say is irresponsible, then I alone am responsible for the saying of it.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:54 pm 
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Yeah, that's absurd. Popular as the show is, they're not going to just end it with Matt Smith. And what would be the point of announcing Peter Capaldi?

The Daleks were launching a full-scale attack on Gallifrey; if Gallifrey suddenly vanished in a split second, the Daleks couldn't magically stop lasers/whatever they've already shot. The idea is that whatever they were already shooting at Gallifrey would be enough to wipe them out in that moment of confusion when Gallifrey just pops out of existence.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:23 pm 
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sarahalyse wrote:
Yeah, that's absurd. Popular as the show is, they're not going to just end it with Matt Smith. And what would be the point of announcing Peter Capaldi?

I think the point is they're not going to end the show, they're going to address the fact he's used up all his regenerations, come up with a way around it and move on.
They were never going to end the show with the 14th regeneration anyway so they might as well say he's at 14 now and come up with the magic plot device that removes the limit. That way we get it out of the way sooner rather than later and fans stop going on about it.

sarahalyse wrote:
The Daleks were launching a full-scale attack on Gallifrey; if Gallifrey suddenly vanished in a split second, the Daleks couldn't magically stop lasers/whatever they've already shot. The idea is that whatever they were already shooting at Gallifrey would be enough to wipe them out in that moment of confusion when Gallifrey just pops out of existence.

Yup, that's exactly what I assumed as well.


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