Rian's Forum

A place to discuss Rian's stuff, and stuff that isn't Rian's stuff. Hello!
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:08 pm 
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Okay, or at least not a plot hole that Rian created.

So, the hyperspace bit, with crashing the Raddus into the Supremacy. I'm seeing some stuff that this is some kind of game-breaking glitch, or in movie-speak, major plot hole, and like... no? Or, if it is, it isn't RIAN'S plot hole, but but the original franchise's one.

Basically some people I guess are saying that if you can crash into things at light speed, why hasn't anyone ever done it before, to end the battle? And yeah, GOOD QUESTION. Why hasn't anyone? But Rian didn't write the previous films, so why are people laying this at the door of The Last Jedi?

And you can't say that it's because it was just never possible in the SW universe before, because crashing into things in hyperdrive was never off the table. Doesn't Han mention something early on about how dangerous it would be to crash in hyperdrive? (Although I might be wrong on that or misremembering?) So it's a thing that could happen, although you wouldn't want to do it unless you were desperate.

So yeah, what would even be the need for a death star? The Empire (or First Order) could have just gotten some Stormtroopers to crash ships into the planets they wanted gone, and there would be no room for niggling things like "waiting for it to warm up" or get built, or fatal design flaws. There would be no time for anything.

So yeah, a plot hole? But not Rian's plot hole. All TLJ did was highlight a flaw in previous movies.

(I'm not getting into real life science here with mass increasing as you get closer to light speed etc. because SW never does, so why bother. :) )


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:22 am 
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In Empire the Rebels had to disable the Star Destroyers over Hoth before they could fly past them and go to lightspeed. The series has established pretty firmly that you need a clear space ahead of you in order to make the jump.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:35 am 
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And yet in The Force Awakens they jump to hyperspace from inside a hangar without causing damage to themselves or the hangar. Maybe because they had a small ship? Or maybe because there are no clear rules for any of this within the lucasfilm storygroup, and they just make up whatever rules are necessary to make the scene the coolest it can be. Which is really the best way to go about it.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:38 am 
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JulesKD wrote:
Basically some people I guess are saying that if you can crash into things at light speed, why hasn't anyone ever done it before, to end the battle? And yeah, GOOD QUESTION. Why hasn't anyone? But Rian didn't write the previous films, so why are people laying this at the door of The Last Jedi?

Why not?
Tactically, a vehicle of any sort will always be easier to interdict than a weapon.
Strategically, suicide is a poor leadership principle.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:59 am 
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They could have used droids, or stormtroopers because the Empire/First Order doesn't exactly care about them.

But what I'm saying is, yes it could be done, there's nothing in the past saying it couldn't, but that isn't the fault of TLJ.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:47 am 
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Ramming of ships is a naval tactic with a long and illustrious career.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:19 am 
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Right! To me, all this did was add something that already had potential.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:37 pm 
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There's been a lot of hyperspace fuckery in these two. First, TFA:

They jump to hyperspace to get the MacGuffin monster off the windshield. They're still accelerating so the bad guys left in the hangar suffer little damage. Fine, it's a cool moment and well in Han's character.
They have to blip out of hyperspace just in time behind Starkiller base's shield. They spend nearly 10 seconds figuring out how to do it, so obviously it's complicated. Sub-point: So much of the drama of most space-based movies is "getting through the shields". It would be nice if a clever writer could figure out a way to have super-cool space battles that involve big-ass ships shooting at each other without 5% of the ship/10% of the crew getting blowed up without stupid "shields", which are invisible of course (because having a big beige bubble around the ship is not good cinematically) and are as strong or as weak as plot demands.

TLJ:
Hyperspace tracking: Okay, so they had a ring with a bug in it. It's not hyperspace tracking, it's just a bug. This gets a pass.
Hyperspace blow-up-the-ship: First, droids. Droids are basically people, with personalities and memory and whatnot. BB-8 and R2-D2 (and K2-S0) are maybe more human than anyone in the entire series. It'd be spectacularly fucked up to build droids for the express purpose of kamikaze missions, even if you program them to be all excited for it--that's even worse, honestly. Who are the bad guys at this point?
Second, I think it works here for a couple of reasons: a) you have to accelerate, which is the part where the stars start to slide and is the coolest thing ever. b) The Raddus was a large cruiser, not a small fighter. The Supremacy was a big-ass ship, but I think the two worked together well in that it was just large enough to neatly bisect it. This would have worked even better if it had been of the odd Rebel design with the large hangy-down bit.


I had another point, but I forgot, so here look at this instead. https://twitter.com/ChefWayner/status/9 ... 04/video/1


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:32 pm 
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Like Justin said, maybe the Raddus was large enough to cause damage to the Supremacy, but a smaller ship or object wouldn't.

Perhaps the blasts that ships fire at each other are actually small masses accelerated to light speed, and use the same technology that is used to jump ships to light speed, but the blasts do less damage because they are small masses. But maybe the device that is used to accelerate the blasts is located on-board the ship instead of being located on the object that is being accelerated. Such a device would likely be very expensive, and would not be disposable with every blast.

If that was the case, then it would be cool if there was such a ship that just carried around super-massive "bombs" that contained a light-speed accelerator on-board. Such ships would be obviously expensive, but also useful in high-stakes combat with formidable opponents. It may be that the First Order could be aware of such technology, and even possess such a ship, but only reserves it for such instances where it would clearly be needed. The First Order was clearly caught off-gaurd by Holdo's maneuver, and even stated that the "ship is empty". Maybe the Supremacy is engineered for specific maneuverability, and was fabricated under certain budgetary constraints; therefore, it doesn't possess large objects to be used as light-speed acceleration "bombs". Generally, all engineering projects are designed to optimize certain features, and perhaps inclusion of such technology on the Supremacy and other devices like the Death Star, Starkiller base, and Star Destroyer, etc, was just not something that was feasible or practical with the resources and design constraints that came into play. Maybe the planet-destroying capabilities of the Death Star and Starkiller base were designed using a different technology than the light-speed "bomb" idea used by Holdo because it was a more economical/sustainable way of being able to continually re-use planet-destroying capabilities.

It seems like flying a large ship into another ship would not be commonplace because it would cost so much money to make a large ship, and because people or self-aware droids might not want to commit suicide.

I don't know... obviously, there are supernatural things going on in Star Wars relating to the Force, so it's kind of useless to scrutinize every single little thing in relation to what could actually be possible. But I do understand the need to at least use logic to compare things that are possible within the Star Wars universe with other things that happen so that the story is self-consistent even if it's not consistent with real-world reality.

Either way, it wouldn't really ruin the movie for me if there were some logically-inconsistent events within it.

That being said, to me the thing about TLJ that brings up even more questions than the Holdo maneuver is the thing where Yoda can effect the world as a Force Ghost, and the thing were Luke can appear as a mirage - not just to a single person as a sort of dream or hallucination like how Obi-Wan appeared to Luke in Empire - but that he can appear to everyone, as if he actually exists in some form of manifestation as a mirage. And what are the limitations of the powers of the force? What can the force NOT do? If we don't have limits on what the force can do, will each successive movie continue to expand the possible powers of force-users?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:52 pm 
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I agree with all of this (though IN REEEEEAAAAL LIIIIIFE if light-speed were ever possible, the mass it would take to pull it off would like, rip an entire planet apart because of E =ing MC2 and that fancy stuff, but Star Wars, so...)

And droids have programmable personality but are they sentient? Just because we love them? I don't think you can have consciousness without a body, but again, STAR WARS. :)

The First Order, however, would have no problem doing that even if droids were sentient!

Again, I agree that it isn't a plot hole and that people are just finding things to complain about.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:25 am 
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I think consciousness totally does not require a body.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:59 am 
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Well I would looooove to believe that, honestly I would. That would make, not only sci fi stories more true to life and better (like the one I'm writing now!) but also it would make real life more bearable. :)

But I just can't seem to convince myself. There was also recently a TED talk about why it's just not possible, and why AI, computers, droids, and even uploading memories would never recreate actual consciousness. Boo. It's a party-pooper.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:22 pm 
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Hmmm.... interesting. Are you an author? Do you have anything I can read?


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 7:18 pm 
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I am, but my first novel is with my agent, out on submission (no luck yet :/ ) so I'm not at liberty to share excerpts.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:19 am 
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When has demonstrable fact ever trumped imagination?
Lewis Carroll was a mathematician and logician.

"You are old," said the youth, "one would hardly suppose
That your eye was as steady as ever;
Yet you balanced an eel on the end of your nose—
What made you so awfully clever?"

"I have answered three questions, and that is enough,"
Said his father; "don't give yourself airs!
Do you think I can listen all day to such stuff?
Be off, or I'll kick you down stairs!"

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